written and posted by members of Lancashire Dead Good Poets' Society

Saturday 8 October 2022

Are Songs Poetry?

Are songs poetry? That simple question had me reaching for my Big Book Of Greek Lyric Poetry. By the way, it's not actually called that and it's not actually that big either, because not much verse has survived from 2,500 years ago, but I reached for it anyway because I was pretty sure that somewhere in its learned introduction it made the claim that 'in the beginning' poetry and song were one and indivisible. 

And yes, when taken in conjunction with visual depictions in vase paintings and decorative reliefs (see below), plus such accounts as we have about the nature and content of  Ancient Greek festivities, there is probably evidence enough to conclude that in the 7th and 6th centuries BC, in the artistic heart of an emerging civilised world, the simple answer was 'yes', songs were poetry. certainly where lyric poetry was concerned.

Alcaeus and Sappho (aka The Lyres)
Homer aside, in chronological order after Archilochus (about whom you can read a little more in an earlier blog linked here: The Truth Is...). Sappho (630-570 BC) is possibly the most famous of the ancient Greek poets. She and her contemporary Alcaeus (625-580 BC) were writing in Mytilene on the island of Lesbos at the turn of the 6th century BC. Sappho came from an aristocratic family and was well-educated. She was widely regarded as an excellent lyric poet and was sometimes referred to as 'the tenth muse'. She is thought to have composed some 10,000 lines of poetry, most of which is lost to posterity. The longest (though still incomplete) surviving poem of hers was discovered on a roll of papyrus found in Egypt and dating to the 3rd century AD, nearly 800 years after she first composed it, meaning there was either a very good oral tradition, or written versions (also since lost) had existed down the centuries, or both. It is known as Fragment 44 and describes the return of Hector to Troy with his bride-to-be Andromache, and their subsequent wedding.

Like all Greek lyric poetry it had a regular metre and was created to be sung, accompanied by a lyre (hence the adjective 'lyric') or some other musical instruments, and the combination of metre and rhyme, obviously lost in modern translation, would have aided the memorising of the poetry for sung performance.

From Fragment 44
....................................................................to Ilios.
Lyres, melodious shawms, and the clatter of castanets
blended there, and the voices of girls in the holy song;
up to heaven the glorious clamour arose...... Everywhere
in the streets there were bowls full of wine, and cups,
myrrh and cassia, frankincense, fragrances all pell-mell.
And the women of matronly age shouted Eleleu!
while the men singing out in the beautiful steepscale hymn
called on Paeon, the god of the excellent bow and lyre,
praising Hector the prince and Andromache his princess.
                                                                                                          Sappho

We have 160 fragments of her poems in all. In some cases only a few incomplete lines of each composition remain. Although she was married and had a daughter, many of her poems insinuate her love for other women and as a consequence she has indirectly bequeathed the words lesbian and sapphic to the English language. For reasons that are unclear, Sappho was exiled from Lesbos when she was in her thirties, spent the remainder of her life in Sicily and apparently committed suicide over a love affair with a ferryman.

solo Sappho
Moving along, I'm supposing that at some indeterminate point there was a fork in the creative road, with spoken word heading off unaccompanied down one path and song heading off along another, though of course these pathways were never clearly defined and often crossed. Just think of the troubadour's role that stretched through the middle ages into renaissance times and lives on in regional folk traditions.

The highbrow view is that 'poetry' is elevated or refined expression of thought and feeling and that song by contrast is somewhat banal in content, but we know such a generalisation is dangerous and untrue. There has been much banal verse committed to page (though it is not fashionable to deride it as unpoetic), just as there are many songs whose content can truly be called poetic in expression. I am supposing we will all have our favourite practitioners among the latter. Joan Armatrading, Gene Clark, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Gerard Langley, Joni Mitchell, Van Morrison, Patti Smith, Cat Stevens and Dar Williams to name but a handful of mine have all blurred a line by writing 'poetry' as well as 'songs'.

If a conclusion to the ongoing debate is required, mine would be this: it depends how broad or precise one's definition of poetry is as to whether all or just some songs are poetry. I'll leave you with a tantalising fragment of my own. One day I may complete it and set it to music - who knows? 😉

Love Lust & Lyres
................skilful hands and mouths.................................
instruments of love's duet...................... orchestrating in
.........desire to explore the rhythms of our passion..........
taught strings, sought out by knowing fingers, upscaling
in intensity.... reverberating harmonics........... pulse with 
sweetest music plucked..... response in one another.........
.......so finely attuned, rise together to glorious crescendo. 

Thanks for reading, S ;-)

48 comments:

Binty said...

This matron shouted Eleleu! 🤣

Ross Madden said...

Fascinating about early lyric poetry and about Sappho. I enjoyed your clever spoof. 👏

Boz said...

Terrific piece. QED la!

Annie Walthorn said...

I think Leonard Cohen (bow your head) answers that one. xxx

Zoe Nikolopoulou said...

Just a note about that translation of Fragment 44: it mentions "melodious shawms", but technically the shawm is relatively modern, C12th I think (and forerunner of the oboe). The ancient Greek double-reed equivalent was the (melodious) aulos. By the way, I liked your fragment.

Lizzie Fentiman said...

It certainly makes sense about the origins of lyric poetry. There was also a strand of epic poetry that I suppose was not sung (though I could be wrong). It there any evidence that Alcaeus and Sappho played together (so to speak)? What a clever idea to concoct a 'fragment' of your own. I love it.

Roy Wilson said...

Informative and provocative as ever. Excellent post. 👍

Beth Randle said...

It's an interesting question. If it's written as a poem and then set to music and sung, then a song is poetry. Then how is writing a song lyric not also poetry? It opens up a wider debate about what poetry is, with all the issues of rhyme-scheme or not, banality or profound imagery etc etc. Mostly subjective I suspect. Maybe many poets are not adept musicians. Anyway, I liked your treatment and the inventive poem... "taught strings, sought out by knowing fingers" is particularly clever. Well done.

Billy Banter said...

Neat...let you off having to write a complete poem.😉

Debbie Laing said...

Very interesting and perfectly pitched as usual.

Dani Merakli said...

Nice one Steve. I'm with you regarding Leonard Cohen and Cat Stevens - their songs are poetry. 👍

Anonymous said...

That Sappho looks intense and moody!

Tom Shaw said...

Exactly Steve. Lyric poetry is the source. I consider my song lyrics to be poetry. I teach song-writing at my local Arts Center and some of what my students write, if it wasn't set to music, would still be considered poetry.

Sakka said...

This is correct. The ancient term mousike has a broader meaning than the modern term ‘music’: it is the art of the Muses, including music, poetry and dance. Music should actually be studied together with the songs/poems it
accompanied, and when possible, even dance. Unfortunately many modern studies
separate the three. It is worth noting, however, that plain instrumental music was rare in Classical Greece. The idea of mousike including poetry and dance is especially apparent from reading of Plato and the study of vase art. Poets like Alcaeus and Sappho shown were also accomplished musicians.

Saskia Parker said...

I don't really have a strong view on this Steve. Your pitch was interesting, all new to me, and convincing, and your fragment was clever and sexy. What will stay with me longest is the thought that Sappho committed suicide for love of a ferryman. How romantic at 60! ❤️

Gemma Gray said...

Fascinating and informative as ever. I enjoyed your 'fragment'. As to the main question: I saw you listed Joan Armatrading among your 'poetic lyricists' (and I agree) so it's interesting to note that no lesser publishing house than Faber & Faber are putting out a book of her selected lyrics next month. 👍

Harry Lennon said...

Very interesting. I wondered if it might be a tad academic but I think you've struck the right note. This was readable and informative and I loved the way you've presented your Love Lust & Lyres poem in the style of an incomplete fragment. Bravo.

Penny Lockhart said...

It's a revelation to me that poetry was once sung. Absolutely fascinating.

Yianni Aspradakis said...

The dots from the mouth of Alcaeus show he is singing and what he signs is damakalos (Damas is beautiful) I think a name for the goddess of love.

Sophie Pope said...

It's subjective isn't it. As you say, the broadest definition of poetry would surely include all song lyrics.

Jambo said...

That Sappho. Tenth muse. What a gal!

Peter Fountain said...

Maybe all songs could be considered as sung poems, but certainly not all poems would suit music (even if that's how lyric poetry started). That was a neat trick you pulled in Love Lust & Lyres. 👍

Mac Southey said...

Great blog Steve. We went to see Sarah Gillespie at Pizza Express Jazz Club last Sunday. (I know you're a fan.) She mentioned her poetry book. Support for your argument that songs can be poetry. Also, did you know there's an American band called The Lyres?

Steve Rowland said...

I wish I could have been there Mac. I have Sarah's book 'Queen Ithaca Blues' and coincidentally shared one of her poems with some fellow poets the other day before revealing that it was also a song: "Postcards To Outer Space" from her album 'Glory Days'.

Anonymous said...

Well I've learned a thing or two there. Thank you Mr R.

Miriam Fife said...

Sappho must have been quite something to earn such a lasting reputation. I enjoyed your clever 'fragment'. Well done. To the list of song-writers as poets I'd offer Suzanne Vega.

Demelza Hoyle said...

I don't know about 'niche'. I found this very readable and informative. The most significant thing for me was to learn that a woman was one of the most celebrated of ancient Greek poets. We went backwards a few thousands years after that!

Stu Hodges said...

Captain Beefheart was a poet in my eyes.

Tim Collins said...

Spoken word (poetry) exists because a pen is cheaper than a lute (or whatever) and easier to play (LOL).

Noragh Montgomerie said...

It's a YES from me. Some song lyrics may not be profound or sophisticated, many are frankly trite, cliched rhyming exercises, but who's to rule that rhyme and verse are NOT poetry?

Deke Hughes said...

I started off wondering if it really matters. Then it occurred to ne that freeing the words from the music allowed poetry to develop in unconstrained ways. And then I thought about how a musical accompaniment might heighten the emotional intensity of a piece. I can see merits on both sides now, which segues into me agreeing with you that Joni Mitchell (and other artful songsmiths) are also poets.

Ben Templeton said...

Self-evidently many poems are not songs, and were never written to be set to music (although some have been, retrospectively). In my opinion, having read the blog (very informative by the way), all songs can be considered as poetry even though some have little more merit than rhyming doggerel. It's a spectrum, with a high end (Dylan et al), a low end (most teen pop) and a whole load in between.

Mary Jane Evans said...

Most interesting, but I have a question. What is steepscale (as in "beautiful steepscale hymn")? Never heard the word before and can't find a definition. Kudos to you for your own clever and teasing fragment. 👏

Writer21 said...

Thank you for Sappho's verse- lovely. Suzanne Vega also comes to my mi d as a poet-songwriter!
A super poem, Steve.

Jen McDonagh said...

Very interesting and mostly new to me (had heard of Sappho but didn't know the background). I can understand poets being snooty about song lyrics because many are cliched but then there is poor verse out there as well. Your conclusion is a reasonable one - and what a clever idea for your poem as well.

Ruthie Milton said...

A very interesting post. Sappho must have been something quite special.

Rich Davenport said...

Enjoyed your set the other night, and your blog about songs as poetry, cracking stuff!

Cynthia said...

There are song lyrics, verse and poetry.Poetry is quite rare I think but in this debate there is plenty of overlap and boils down to opinion.Interesting blog Steve.

Ailsa Cox said...

I loved that piece. It was informative and thought-provoking. I'd never considered the matter before, but it seems to have generated a lively debate.

Tyger Barnett said...

Fascinating blog and some interesting comments.

Fin Taverner said...

IMHO the best songs are poetic.

Siân Foulkes said...

Your poem was lovely. And I really enjoyed reading Sapphos‘ historical (or hysterical) journey. Undone by a ferryman. Siân

Roxy Bellingham said...

Fascinating.

Brett Cooper said...

...and we have Waltzing Matilda - oh and the Saints and Lime Spiders and Go Betweens and Hoodoo Gurus! I'll share the blog with my Greek buddies.

Nicci Haralambous said...

I've never actually read any Sappho. Can you believe it? This was most enjoyable and I loved your 'Love Lust & Lyres' fragment.

Beverley Tate said...

Very good and I agree that songs can be poetry.

Dom Patterson said...

She looks sultry, that Sappho. Well done with your spoof fragment poem.

Esther Leon said...

I am late to this debate but having struggled through Joan Armatrading's book of selected lyrics 'The Weakness In Me' (published by Faber & Faber no less) I have to cede that one of my favourite singers is no poet, not in a million years.